Carl Levin

You think that that limited liability corporation called Nufcor is going to protect Goldman from liability of a catastrophic incident?

Do you think when Goldman runs a company the way it did--buys the company.

Essentially, Nufcor became a shell operation under the complete control of Goldman employees.

Don't we have to put some force behind those walls?

I believe we have got to have regulations that make that Chinese wall real, in law.

I think it is wrong for the public to have to rely on a voluntary policy such as that, which is not enforceable.

Morgan Stanley has been an active trader in the natural gas market for decades.

So there is no doubt, since Wentworth is a shell, that if anything goes wrong it is Morgan Stanley that is on the hook.

The Wentworth Corporations functioned as shell entities and that you and your staff were actually overseeing this project and managing the business.

The limit and JPMorgan's commitment is going to be an effective safeguard and limit size and amount of risk from physical commodity activities.

I think that is an issue which they are going to take up with you, I hope.

I think we will hear tomorrow what we have heard already in our investigation; the Fed did not know that JPMorgan was excluding its bank's metals until December 2011.

JPM Chase commits to the board that it will limit the amount of physical commodities that it holds at any one time.

But by exploiting certain loopholes and using aggressive interpretations, often without telling regulators beforehand, JPMorgan and its bank have been able to accumulate physical commodity holdings far in excess of the limits while…

Now as we set out in our Report, JPMorgan and its bank are subject to limits on the size of their physical commodity holdings.

Now I believe you told the Federal Reserve in 2011 that those three power plants, the ones you owned outright, that you would sell those three power plants and that they would be sold, I believe if I am reading this correctly, by now…

Now JPMorgan has told us it will take until 2018, another 4 years, for it to completely exit the power plant business.

And since you should not use it, is there any reason why we should not prohibit from being used?

Should you be able to use that information in the trading world? That is the question.

I do not think there is. But my question is, in any event, should there be a legal prohibition, not just a voluntary policy adopted by a company whose economic interest runs in the opposite direction of the Chinese wall?

Not just the tolls but in those deals involving tolls, you would gain information which would help you to trade electricity-related financial instruments--futures, swaps, options.

So not just the most accurate price, but it would give you an advantage, would it not, being in that business, too, in your dealings in financial commodities, the derivative offerings that you were involved in?

And not just better prices but also getting that commercially valuable, nonpublic information--and it is nonpublic information in those plants before it is made public;

One of the reasons that JPMorgan wanted to get into the power plant business was to increase its access to important market information.

JPMVEC booked its electricity in natural gases.