Carl Levin

We have to prevent that, I believe.

If that is not a recipe for manipulation, then I have not seen recipes for manipulation.

So the Chinese Wall Policy, even if it is not a tissue paper, is a one-way information barrier.

There is no policy that stops the information from flowing to you?

But the Chinese Wall Policy does not stop that flow?

And there is nothing in the Chinese Wall Policy, even if it is implemented properly, that stops Goldman from sending direction and information to you?

It is also unethical, that is clear, but when you have a huge economic interest that is on the other side of ethical interests, too often the ethical interests give way.

I just do not think we can rely on a private policy to make sure that this does not happen.

But they are involved in trading?

I happen to agree with what I believe Senator McCain was driving at before about the potential value of that information.

You enter contracts which require people to increase the queue.

The queue then is significantly in your control, the length of the queue.

Metro has the power, I believe, to load out more metal and bring down the queue.

Mr. Wibbelman, at the end of the fourth Red Kite deal in December 2012, the queue to leave the Metro warehouses in Detroit was about 500 days long.

And then when Red Kite canceled, you now, I think, have agreed finally that that will lengthen the queue.

And Red Kite got in line to leave. Is that correct?

So is it fair to say these basically followed a joint Goldman-Metro decision?

I believe you would want to acknowledge that when Goldman canceled the warrants on 300,000 metric tons that it owned, that that did have a direct effect on the queue?

When Goldman canceled warrants for over 300,000 metric tons of aluminum in 2012, did that cancellation directly lead to the lengthening of the queue?

The length of the queue to remove metal from Metro's Detroit warehouse is not the result of action by either Goldman Sachs or Metro.

Now, Goldman canceled warrants, its own warrants, for over 300,000 metric tons of aluminum in 2012.

It is always an option. Break the deal or not. You are free in that sense. We are all free to break deals.

You know that. You are a business person, a very active business----

In order to have the economic advantages that they saw in this deal, and if they were going to live up to the deal, they had to get into the queue.

If they wanted the benefit of our economics in this deal, then they had to do that, yes.