Barney Frank: “the history is ambiguous. Courts have been on both sides. The principle is what is involved. We are told that if we…”

“the history is ambiguous. Courts have been on both sides. The principle is what is involved. We are told that if we adopt this amendment, we are denying the liberty to religious organizations. The liberty that is being asked, frankly I am disappointed to hear this asserted, and I think the greatest denigration of religious organizations coming forward here are those who are saying this: there are religious groups in this country who are eager to help people in need, but if they get Federal tax dollars to help people in need and they are forced to associate with heathens and unbelievers and infidels, then they will be driven away. What is so terrible about saying to the Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn who were cited, you want to help the people in Brooklyn, the people you want to help will be black and Hispanic, they will be white and poor and Jewish and Christian, if you really want to help them, on your own, whatever you want to do, you can do. But if you want all of those people in Brooklyn who paid Federal taxes, if you want a share of their Federal taxes to run a program to help them, God forbid, I guess you mean this literally, God forbid you should have to hire one of them. Martin Luther King said, and it is sadly still true, that one of the most segregated times in America is the hour of worship. So understand that when you empower the religious groups to discriminate based on religion, you will also de facto empower some segregation.”